Don't ask for surface, if footway:surface is already tagged. #197

Henry00572 · 2023-08-07T18:23:28Z

I was asked about the surface of https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1084496227, which is already tagged with footway:surface and cycleway:surface. I don't think it needs another surface tag.

Don't ask for surface, if footway:surface is set.

Robbendebiene · 2023-08-11T10:00:01Z

Thanks for raising this issue. I agree on this, but I think splitting this question into multiple would be the best way to properly solve this problem:

"Wie ist der Boden beschaffen?"
WRITES: surface
CONDITION: asked when the way is not segregated or it is unknown whether it is segregated or not (segregated: [false, "no"])
"Wie ist der Boden des Fahrradwegs beschaffen?"
WRITES cycleway:surface
CONDITION: asked when the way is segregated (segregated: "yes")
"Wie ist der Boden des Fußwegs beschaffen?"
WRITES footway:surface
CONDITION: asked when the way is segregated (segregated: "yes")

Do you feel comfortable adding this to the question_catalog.json? You can also find out more how it works here: https://github.com/OPENER-next/OpenStop/blob/master/docs/QUESTION_CATALOG.md

Edited quest for surface so it is not asked when the way is segregated, but key segregated can be set if the surface differs between foot- and cycleway. Added quests for footway:surface and cycleway:surface that are asked for segregated foot- and cycleways without surface or *:surface.

Henry00572 · 2023-08-12T18:12:59Z

Thanks for the help, I think I have created the quests as you said.
The logic works as follows:

surface is asked if surface is not set and segregated is ["no", false]. However, for segregated ways where one side is paved and the other one unpaved (I still have to add a picture of this situtation, for example here), segregated=yes is set and the following two quests will ask for the surfaces individually.
2./3, footway:surface and cycleway:surface are asked for highway ["fotway", "cycleway", "path"] with segregated=yes and foot ["yes", "designated"] or bicycle ["yes", "designated"] respectively.

Add image for segregated foot- and cycleway with different surfaces.

Add link to image

Henry00572 · 2023-08-13T20:31:05Z

I have now added an image of the situation where a segregated way has different surfaces. In this case, segregated=yes should be set in the surface quest and the individual surfaces can be inserted by the other new quests.
I have also uploaded the image to Wikimedia Commons with CC0 license and I hope it's acceptable.
Thanks again for your help.

Robbendebiene

Thanks for your work. Looks pretty good!

Also great job with adding an image to wiki commons and licensing it with CC0. That is exactly the way we prefer to go. Even though depending on which direction we decide to go we might prefer a different image.

Robbendebiene · 2023-08-14T06:43:06Z

assets/datasets/question_catalog.json

+            },
+            {
+               "name": "Unterschiedlich",
+               "image": "assets/images/questions/segregated_surface_paved_unpaved.jpg",
+               "osm_tags": {
+                  "segregated": "yes"
+               }
            }
         ]


The problem is, that this question is also asked for platforms. There it doesn't make sense to offer segregated as an answer. Though this could be solved by splitting the questions again (one for ways one for platforms).

I find the idea very interesting. I did not think about adding segregated as an answer to this question before.

The only risk in doing so I see is that segregated is meant to be tagged only when the separation/segregation is explicitly denoted with the specific sign. However at least in theory there can be ways with different surfaces that are not segregated in a legal sense.

The other option would be to explicitly ask in a separate question whether a way is segregated or not. Yours is more elegant but potentially prone to errors. Another benefit of this split would be that we can also tag segregated=no because it's unsafe to add it in the surface question.

What do you think?

I see the problems with the option segregated on platforms and with different surfaces that are not legally segregated. Both could be solved with another quest for the key segregated, although with some more logic.

If we add another quest for segregated, which is asked on ways and not platforms, then if segregated=no is answered, the surface can be answered by the surface quest, and if segregated=yes is set then the other new quests for footway:surface and cycleway:surface apply.

In the case of different surfaces that are not legally segregated, I don't know of any tagging that could describe such a situation and it probably occurs very rarely.

So do you think we should add another quest for segregated?

PS: In an accessibility app there should really be a value of segregated for describing that a way is segregated using tactile paving, but that's another story.

If we add another quest for segregated, which is asked on ways and not platforms, then if segregated=no is answered, the surface can be answered by the surface quest, and if segregated=yes is set then the other new quests for footway:surface and cycleway:surface apply.

So do you think we should add another quest for segregated?

Yes I think it is the cleanest way even though this means introducing another question.

Perhaps you can make it a List answer type with two entries and add the following images:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Zeichen_241-30_-_getrennter_Rad-_und_Fu%C3%9Fweg,_StVO_1992.svg

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Zeichen_240_-_Gemeinsamer_Fu%C3%9F-_und_Radweg,_StVO_1992.svg

Note though that we unfortunately cannot render svgs so converting them to a png is required. (our preferred resolution is 2000 x 2000px)

I only wonder whether it would make sense to construct a more advanced question that covers more legal cases regarding bicycles and pedestrians. (I'm thinking about some of these scenarios: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Bicycle/Radverkehrsanlagen_kartieren). Or are we losing our selves here? 😅

PS: In an accessibility app there should really be a value of segregated for describing that a way is segregated using tactile paving, but that's another story.

Just out of interest, you mean something like this right?

https://www.handi-friendly.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Jirkov-2-scaled.jpg
Or even this https://ecf.com/sites/ecf.com/files/Figure%2038%20v2%20%5BCredit%20Robert%20Weetman%5D.jpg

assets/datasets/question_catalog.json

Edit conditions for *:surface quests and fix typo

Add images for segregated and non-segregated foot- and cycleway.

Add quest for segregated

Henry00572 · 2023-08-16T10:52:37Z

Perhaps you can make it a List answer type with two entries and add the following images

Okay, I think I have done that, I had to resolve some conflicts with #200, but I think that works now.
The conditions are quite strict as the question requires highway=path/footway/cycleway + foot=designated + bicycle=designated. If we wanted to

construct a more advanced question that covers more legal cases regarding bicycles and pedestrians

this would probably be too strict. For now, the two options segregated=yes and segregated=no are enough to me.

Just out of interest, you mean something like this right?

Exactly.

Robbendebiene

Thanks. I think we are almost there!

The last problem I see is that we now only ever ask any surface questions when segragated is set to yes or no. This itself is not necessarily a problem, but since the conditions for writing segregated ourself are very strict (requiring "foot": "designated", "bicycle": "designated") the surface conditions become likewise as strict.

So we could either loosen the constraints for the segregated question or the surface question.
While removing the "foot": "designated", "bicycle": "designated", tags from the segregated question would work, I feel like we rather should tweak the surface questions directly.

For example we could add additional conditions to the questions which ask for the individual surfaces. The following condition would ask the question for footway:surface whenever cycleway:surface is set:

{
    "osm_tags": {
       "highway": ["path", "footway", "cycleway"],
       "cycleway:surface": true,
       "footway:surface": false,
       "indoor": ["no", false]
    },
    "!osm_tags": {
       "access": ["no","private"]
    },
    "osm_element": [
       "OpenWay",
       "ClosedWay"
    ]
 }

Or we could alter the conditions for the "full" surface question like this:

 {
    "osm_tags": {
       "highway": "footway",
       "footway": [false, "sidewalk"],
       "surface": false,
       "indoor": ["no", false],
       "footway:surface": false,
       "cycleway:surface": false,
       "segregated": ["no", false]
    },
    "!osm_tags": {
       "access": ["no","private"]
    },
    "osm_element": [
       "OpenWay",
       "ClosedWay"
    ]
},

Basically this would not ask the questions when a sub surface tag is set (makes it more strict) but still ask the question when segregated is unknown (making it less strict).

assets/datasets/question_catalog.json

Henry00572 · 2023-08-17T12:29:05Z

I feel like we rather should tweak the surface questions directly.

I agree.

Basically this would not ask the questions when a sub surface tag is set (makes it more strict) but still ask the question when segregated is unknown (making it less strict).

I think that's the best way to go. I will edit that.

Changed conditions for surface quest

7h30n3 · 2023-08-17T13:51:08Z

LGTM, except the JSON validation.

assets/datasets/question_catalog.json

Robbendebiene · 2023-08-17T14:38:44Z

Last thing from my side would be to also add the extra conditions for the partial surface questions.
I'm talking about the following with the counter part for the cycleway:surface question:

For example we could add additional conditions to the questions which ask for the individual surfaces. The following condition would ask the question for footway:surface whenever cycleway:surface is set:

{
    "osm_tags": {
       "highway": ["path", "footway", "cycleway"],
       "cycleway:surface": true,
       "footway:surface": false,
       "indoor": ["no", false]
    },
    "!osm_tags": {
       "access": ["no","private"]
    },
    "osm_element": [
       "OpenWay",
       "ClosedWay"
    ]
 }

After this it can be merged from my side 🙂

Henry00572 · 2023-08-17T19:13:35Z

For example we could add additional conditions to the questions which ask for the individual surfaces. The following condition would ask the question for footway:surface whenever cycleway:surface is set:

Wouldn't this disable both questions on a way with e.g. highway=path + foot=designated + bicycle=designated + segregated=yes? Both questions would depend on the other being answered already, so I think this doesn't work.

Fix typo

Robbendebiene · 2023-08-18T06:21:35Z

Wouldn't this disable both questions on a way with e.g. highway=path + foot=designated + bicycle=designated + segregated=yes? Both questions would depend on the other being answered already, so I think this doesn't work.

I think there is a miss-understanding here. I don't want to replace or alter the current condition instead I want to add another one (like we have multiple for the surface question). We use the term "condition" for every direct item denoted with {} in the conditions property which can be confusing sometimes.

So for the footway question it would look like this:

  {
     "question": {
         "name": "Bodenbeschaffenheit Fußweg",
         "text": "Wie ist der Boden des Fußweges beschaffen?",
         "description": "Besteht die Oberfläche aus Schotter, Sand, Gras oder einem vergleichbaren Belag, so handelt es sich um einen unbefestigten Bodenbelag."
      },
      "answer": {
         "type": "List",
         "input": [
            {
               "name": "Befestigt",
               "image": "assets/images/questions/surface_paved.jpg",
               "osm_tags": {
                  "footway:surface": "paved"
               }
            },
            {
               "name": "Unbefestigt",
               "image": "assets/images/questions/surface_unpaved.jpg",
               "osm_tags": {
                  "footway:surface": "unpaved"
               }
            }
         ]
      },
      "conditions": [
         {
            "osm_tags": {
               "highway": ["path", "footway", "cycleway"],
               "segregated": "yes",
               "surface": false,
               "footway:surface": false,
               "indoor": ["no", false]
            },
            "!osm_tags": {
               "access": ["no","private"]
            },
            "osm_element": [
               "OpenWay",
               "ClosedWay"
            ]
         },
        {
            "osm_tags": {
               "highway": ["path", "footway", "cycleway"],
               "cycleway:surface": true,
               "footway:surface": false,
               "indoor": ["no", false]
            },
            "!osm_tags": {
               "access": ["no","private"]
            },
            "osm_element": [
               "OpenWay",
               "ClosedWay"
            ]
         }
      ]
 }

For the cycleway question it would look like this:

  {
      "question": {
         "name": "Bodenbeschaffenheit Radweg",
         "text": "Wie ist der Boden des Radweges beschaffen?",
         "description": "Besteht die Oberfläche aus Schotter, Sand, Gras oder einem vergleichbaren Belag, so handelt es sich um einen unbefestigten Bodenbelag."
      },
      "answer": {
         "type": "List",
         "input": [
            {
               "name": "Befestigt",
               "image": "assets/images/questions/surface_paved.jpg",
               "osm_tags": {
                  "cycleway:surface": "paved"
               }
            },
            {
               "name": "Unbefestigt",
               "image": "assets/images/questions/surface_unpaved.jpg",
               "osm_tags": {
                  "cycleway:surface": "unpaved"
               }
            }
         ]
      },
      "conditions": [
         {
            "osm_tags": {
               "highway": ["path", "footway", "cycleway"],
               "segregated": "yes",
               "surface": false,
               "cycleway:surface": false,
               "indoor": ["no", false]
            },
            "!osm_tags": {
               "access": ["no","private"]
            },
            "osm_element": [
               "OpenWay",
               "ClosedWay"
            ]
         },
        {
            "osm_tags": {
               "highway": ["path", "footway", "cycleway"],
               "footway:surface": true,
               "cycleway:surface": false,
               "indoor": ["no", false]
            },
            "!osm_tags": {
               "access": ["no","private"]
            },
            "osm_element": [
               "OpenWay",
               "ClosedWay"
            ]
         }
      ]
},

assets/datasets/question_catalog.json

Add additional conditions for individual surface quests and fix mistake

Henry00572 · 2023-08-18T07:45:20Z

I want to add another one (like we have multiple for the surface question). We use the term "condition" for every direct item denoted with {} in the conditions property which can be confusing sometimes.

Thanks for clearing that up, I understand now and have added this condition.

Robbendebiene

LGTM!

Thank you for your contribution 🙂

Henry00572 · 2023-08-18T09:16:01Z

Thanks for all the help!

* Add question whether a way is segregated * Add separate surface question for segregated footways * Add separate surface question for segregated cycleways

Update question_catalog.json

5a49bc1

Don't ask for surface, if footway:surface is set.

Henry00572 added 2 commits August 13, 2023 22:23

Add files via upload

c1c96e2

Add image for segregated foot- and cycleway with different surfaces.

Update question_catalog.json

3fa8c71

Add link to image

Robbendebiene reviewed Aug 14, 2023

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Henry00572 added 8 commits August 15, 2023 14:22

Update question_catalog.json

aff77ec

Edit conditions for *:surface quests and fix typo

Add files via upload

f596469

Add images for segregated and non-segregated foot- and cycleway.

Delete segregated_no_sign_241-30.png

b0213e8

Delete segregated_yes_sign_240.png

9b08383

Delete segregated_surface_paved_unpaved.jpg

8d2a4e6

Add files via upload

9682ee0

Update question_catalog.json

8bf229d

Add quest for segregated

Merge branch 'master' into ConflictsResolved

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Don't ask for surface, if footway:surface is already tagged. #197

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Don't ask for surface, if footway:surface is already tagged. #197

Don't ask for surface, if footway:surface is already tagged. #197

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