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Trion based Kawari mini not working with SaRuMan 64K static RAM #28

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eightbit0675 opened this issue Feb 2, 2024 · 42 comments
Open

Trion based Kawari mini not working with SaRuMan 64K static RAM #28

eightbit0675 opened this issue Feb 2, 2024 · 42 comments

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@eightbit0675
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eightbit0675 commented Feb 2, 2024 •
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I very recently purchased the Kawari mini (latest Trion model) and I have it installed into a SixtyClone board assy 250466. I saw a video posted around a year ago where Jan Beta could not get his SaRuMan 64K static RAM replacement to work in the board with the Kawari installed. It would just freeze at the BASIC screen with some random characters.

I had asked him if this had been resolved since the video had been posted and he said yes, the latest firmware now supports the SaRuMan. But, unfortunately that is not true at least for the Trion based Kawari Mini.

I received the SaRuMan 64K from Eslapion today and installed it and it does the exact same thing as in Jan Beta's video from a year ago. I am running the latest 1.16 firmware for the mini board. The only firmware currently if I am not mistaken, the one that came installed from VGP where I had ordered.

Looking at your changelog I see you had implemented a fix in v1.14 of the firmware but that was for the Spartan board. The Trion board is obviously acting differently with static RAM and is acting the way it did prior to the Spartan firmware fix. As I am on the latest (and only) firmware available for the Trion mini board I don't see anything I can possibly do to fix this.

I receive precisely exactly the same screen Jan did at 16:58 of his video when he had the issue with the older Spartan model:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9HZmxMZ-pc

If you can please look into this I would greatly appreciate it. I'd really like to use the SaRuMan static ram board.
@eightbit0675 eightbit0675 changed the title Trion based Kawari mini not working with SaRuMan 64K static DRAM Trion based Kawari mini not working with SaRuMan 64K static RAM Feb 2, 2024
@randyrossi
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I just tried my Saruman on my own Sixty clone (466) and it appears to be working correctly for me with the same firmware version.

What revision of Saruman do you have? I have 2020 V1.4 with these chip markings:
Lyonte LY62W1024RL-55SL 2010 I220111A08W1S
HCT573 6090005 YXD029G

Are there any other non-original chips installed on the board? Have you been able to verify the SaRuMan works properly with an original VIC?

@eightbit0675
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eightbit0675 commented Feb 3, 2024 •
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The SaRuMan does indeed work properly with the original VIC. I should have mentioned that I had tried that before submitting the issue in order to confirm it was working.

Mine is also 2020 v1.4, but the sram used is different than yours:

ISSI
IS61C1024AL-12HLI
DSK493X1 2239

HCT573
4890001
YXD136G

And, boy was that difficult to read for an old man ;)

I had received this from eslapion just yesterday. While the pcb has the same date and version as yours, I guess he had sourced different sram.

Just looking quickly at the datasheets for both what really stands out to me is the access time on the ISSI is very different (12, 15ns) than the Lyonte (35/55/70ns), but maybe you see something else?

And there are some non-original chips on the board (J-CIA's, ARMSID, PLAster) but just to make absolutely sure I put all of the original chips back in after I had tested with the original VIC in order to eliminate any possibility. Just Trion Kawari Mini and this new SaRuMan... and it still does the same thing.

@randyrossi
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I may have to purchase the same board to investigate here. Is there a URL link you can share or is this a direct purchase from eslapion off melon64.com?

@eightbit0675
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I had purchased it from him on Amibay:

https://www.amibay.com/threads/saruman-64k-static-ram-for-dram-replacement-board.109657/page-4

You can see my post for the purchase on the last page of the thread.

Thanks for looking into this Randy!

@eightbit0675
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I asked François about this and this was his response:

Hi,
I originally ordered the Lyontek SRAM chip to be installed at the fab on my PCBs but some genius replaced it with a 3.3V chip thinking it would "be better and save money". Apparently in his alternate reality 5V doesn't exist anymore.
I was forced to desolder and replace the SRAMs one by one manually with what I could grab at a decent price from Mouser. The Lyontek SRAMs are very difficult to source when you buy them in small quantities and not for assembly.

This being said, people who have problems with Saruman-64 (fast or slow SRAM) usually have replaced the genuine 74LS257 multiplexers with fake Chinese substitutes which are really rebranded 74HC257. These have a slower reaction speed and a slightly higher logic voltage threshold. AFAIK DigiKey still sells TI SN74LS257 chips in DIP package.

This is the only batch which will ever have faster chips but they did pass all tests on my genuine board 250466 with 6567R9.

Hope this helps.

  • François

@randyrossi
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Thanks for the info. I posted a message to the thread. I'll have to wait for his response as I don't appear to have PM permissions with a new account.

@eightbit0675
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Much appreciated Randy for looking into this. I'll be interested to see what you find!

Thank you once again.

@eightbit0675
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Hi Randy. Just checking in to see if you received that SaRuMan? If so were you able to confirm what I am seeing?

@randyrossi
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randyrossi commented Feb 12, 2024 via email

@eightbit0675
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That's great, and a kind gesture on his part indeed. Thanks for the update Randy!

@randyrossi
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I spoke too soon. I just received the SRAM. I installed it just now and I am getting a garbled screen. I'll have a look later this week.

@randyrossi
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FYI: I was able to get the new Saruman working on my SixtyClone with a minor modification to the CAS rise time. I suspect the Kawari was transitioning CAS from LOW to HI too early and the new SRAM chip was quicker to react and disable the output before the Kawari could read the data. That's my guess but I'm not 100% sure. Adjusting it slightly seems to have cleared up the issue for me.

I need to be careful and do a lot more testing before I make this a final change. I don't want to break the EVO or other static ram chips. Although perhaps this is why the Mellius board has issues. I will do some more testing with the old Saruman + DRAM and update the thread.

@eightbit0675
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eightbit0675 commented Feb 17, 2024 •
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Thanks Randy for the update! Once again I really do appreciate you looking into this. Great to hear you got it working!

I completely understand the fear of breaking other configurations. Hopefully the CAS rise time adjustment does not cause any ill effects. I have not followed the Mellius board project so I was not aware of an issue on that side, but crossing fingers that this fix works "double duty" and fixes things for folks on that side!

I'll be praying for good news :)

@randyrossi
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Would you be able to try this firmware to see if the issue with the new Saruman is fixed? You will probably have to flash it using DRAM or another working C64.

Mini 1.18 Flash Disk

@eightbit0675
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Yes, let me try it and I will report back shortly.

@eightbit0675
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This absolutely worked. You nailed it Randy!

@randyrossi
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Okay, please continue testing and let me know if you have any issues. I will do the same here and release this if everything looks okay. Thanks for letting me know.

@eightbit0675
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I am testing the heck out of it now. So far so good. I will let you know if I encounter any issue and report back in a few days. Again I really appreciate you looking into this so quickly!

@eightbit0675
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Hi Randy,

I would just like to follow up that after days of testing I am not finding anything out of place. The machine has been functioning perfectly stable and I have tested various diagnostics, games, demos. Using it has been quite an enjoyable experience :)

Unless you have found something on your end I can say with confidence that this update did not harm anything and everything works great.

Once again I want to thank you for your help with this. If you don't mind I would ask that you reach out to François on Amibay and provide him with an update that this has been resolved if you have not done so already as I know he was waiting to hear the outcome as well.

Thanks Randy for a superb product and excellent support!

-Bruce

@randyrossi
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randyrossi commented Feb 23, 2024 via email

@randyrossi
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@eightbit0675 Hi again. Would you be able to try this firmware and let me know if your Saruman board still works? I found a regression in the build that I sent you earlier in this thread. Super Zaxxon cartridge failed. However, this new firmware works for me for all static ram I've tested so far and I want to make sure it solves your issue before releasing.

Mini 1.18b Flash Disk

Thanks

@eightbit0675
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Thanks Randy. I will test it shortly!

@eightbit0675
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I am sorry to say that it is broken again. I am experiencing the same problem that I did initially with this new update.

@randyrossi
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Darn. Thanks for trying. I'm not sure whty my initial change cause a regression. Were you experiencing any issues with cartridges with the change I sent?

@eightbit0675
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I only have one cartridge (C64 Ultimate II+L) and that worked with the update, but obviously I couldn't load anything from BASIC. I had to reinstall the original memory and for now reflashed with the previous update you provided and am back up and running. I will mention that Super Zaxxon works fine for me (.crt image running in the UII+) with the previous update as well.

@randyrossi
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randyrossi commented Mar 11, 2024 via email

@eightbit0675
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Are you using the Kawari in PAL or NTSC mode? I don't know if that makes any difference at in this situation but I am using it in NTSC mode only because I have to. I am on a NTSC only Sony Wega Trinitron with no 50hz mode.

@randyrossi
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randyrossi commented Mar 11, 2024 via email

@eightbit0675
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eightbit0675 commented Mar 11, 2024 •
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Thanks Randy. I guess for now I'll just stick with the update you had provided previously. There has been no issues at all with this machine since that update. Of course I'll be willing to test further should you wish to continue to investigate!

I guess as an alternative you can release both updates, with the earlier update being an "alt version" with a warning that it is only to be used if experiencing system lockups with new SaRuMan boards.

One other thing maybe I should mention that has changed in my setup since I opened this ticket is that my original 6510 died on me and I replaced it with a 6502 via Monotech's CPU replacer:

https://monotech.fwscart.com/product/mos-cpu-replacer-(6510-8501)

I don't see how that would make Super Zaxxon run on my system with the prior fixed firmware and not yours though.

@eightbit0675
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Also, when you said your Super Zaxxon cart "failed" with the prior update, what exactly did it do? Lock up or not launch at all, or something else? I can try to source a Super Zaxxon cartridge and test it with the prior update. I am curious now :)

@randyrossi
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randyrossi commented Mar 12, 2024 via email

@eightbit0675
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I guess I haven't kept up on prices/rarity of C64 cartridges, but looking around an original non-replica of Super Zaxxon is way out of my price range :)

Are you using a real cart or the replica? And, are you testing with a stock PLA or a replacement?

I am testing with a replacement PLA, also from Eslapion. The replacement is the PLAnkton EV (latest).

@randyrossi
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randyrossi commented Mar 12, 2024 via email

@eightbit0675
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Just thinking about this today, maybe there is something wrong with how the replica cart is interacting. Do you have another device (Ultimate II or some other) that has the ability to run .crt images? Can you try the Super Zaxxon cart image instead with the earlier firmware you had provided to me and see if the game failing is consistent?

@randyrossi
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randyrossi commented Mar 14, 2024 via email

@SensoriumEmbedded
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SensoriumEmbedded commented Mar 14, 2024 via email •
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@randyrossi
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@SensoriumEmbedded

I have TeensyROM.0.5.0.hex on the sdcard.

I just tried it in 4 different machines and it just boots to BASIC prompt on all of them. Previously, it would intermittently work but now it consistently does not go to the menu. I purchased it from a vendor at the World of Commodore in December. So it's possible it's just a bad build. Is there a serial port I can tap into to see what the board is doing at boot? I can try spraying the sdcard port with a contact cleaner. But it seems it's not even recognized as a cartridge.

@SensoriumEmbedded
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SensoriumEmbedded commented Mar 15, 2024 •
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Thank you much for the response and information Randy, much appreciated. Yes, there is definitely something wrong with that unit. Although it wasn't built by me, I would still like to make it right by sending you a replacement unit free of charge. If you can send me your address, I'll send out a replacement out tomorrow. My e-mail is [email protected] It's important to me that you (and others) have a good/unhindered experience with the TeensyROM. Hoping you can also send the faulty one to me for detailed diagnosis, but that's up to you.

Regarding your question, yes, there is some text output from the USB-B micro port on boot that should be readable with terminal SW. It's not necessarily diagnostic in nature, but would indicate that the FW is loaded. However, I assume it is since it was working intermittently.
Normally, nothing needs to be plugged in to SD/USB in to boot correctly. There's a large number of programs/games/utils built in to the FW so it can operate somewhat autonomously.

My guess is that there is a solder issue of some kind that has gotten worse with time. Guessing it's not a short since the computers do boot, but probably an open on an SMT device. Hope you'll take me up on my offer. :)
Thank you again!

@eightbit0675
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That's nice of you Travis. Thank you for helping Randy...which ultimately will help me to see if the firmware fixed previously is truly affected by the Super Zaxxon incompatibility.

A wise man once said "I love it when a plan comes together" ;)

@randyrossi
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@SensoriumEmbedded Thanks for the offer. Very kind of you. Yes, I can send you the one I have. I will PM you in discord with my address and maybe we can troubleshoot a bit more first with serial to see if we can get anything useful out of that. Thanks again.

@eightbit0675
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HI Randy,

Well fast forward over three months later and still using the firmware v1.18 (not B) that you supplied back on Feb 19th and the machine is rock solid. No issues whatsoever with the new Saruman and no issues at all with any game, demo, anything I have thrown at this. It is actually the most reliable experience I think I have ever had with a C64 :)

That said, I think I am just going to remain on this firmware and call it a day. I would definitely recommend leaving it available to people as I can't be the only one that will run into this issue as long as the Saruman is being sold with the faster SRAM.

Unless you have discovered anything different regarding your Super Zaxxon tests with the replacement TeensyROM?

@randyrossi
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randyrossi commented Jul 12, 2024 via email

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