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C compiler #1443
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Hello @stevexyz, Thanks for your interest in ELKS. A few years back, the project switched from using bcc to ia16-elf-gcc to build the kernel and all the applications. One of the big reasons was the lack of support for 8086 segmented architecture linker and compiler options that are not present in bcc (or tcc). Unfortunately, gcc is way too large to be able to be included in ELKS runtime, so there isn't a way for ELKS to be self-compiled, but this has been viewed as a reasonable tradeoff, all things considered. I'm a fan of tcc, but the question is, given the limitations of segmented-mode 8086, what purpose would it serve, doing the work to get a self-hosted compiler running, when none available contain the features required to build the current kernel and all of the applications? Thank you! |
To me a C compiler is the base of a complete Linux (Unix) system... |
Hi @stevexyz -
Here's the the thing: ELKS is not a complete Linux or Unix system. Like the name says, it's intended for embedded systems. Embedded systems have limited resources and are rarely if ever selfcompiling. Of course our vintage PCs aren't embedded systems, but they have very limited resources. And - as @ghaerr also alluded to - it just doesn't make sense to have that ambition. Possibly fun, but not useful. Think about it - what we have today is a cross development environment with I have Venix running on one of my machines, a 286/12. It's a complete Unix system. It can compile itself if I had full sources, and I've done a lot of development on it. In the mid 80s and recently. It has
Yes, the compilers you're referring to RUN on the segmented architecture, but they support only parts of it – the small, maybe medium memory model, that's all. They have very limited options and support-tools (like
ELKS has come a long way, the last few years in particular. Your contributions would be very welcome. Even a native C-compiler. It's your time and your choice - and you'll get plenty support from the group regardless of whether the target tool/application is for the few or the many. --M |
Not for self-compiling but to make small debug program, it is nice to have a small compiler on ELKS. I now uses the basic to peek memory or read ports on the real PC from the background but sometimes wants to do a little more complicated. |
As already mentioned by @tyama501 it was not to be used to self compiling, even if it would have been a nice thing. And especially for starting, if there is something that is ready to be used, doesn't really matter if it is supporting just a limited memory model, but at least you can compile and run some programs on the system without always access another computer. For now I've other (unfortunately too many) projects going on and I'll stay on the window looking the ways ELKS will grow up, but in the future if it will still be not developed maybe I'll give it a try! In the meantime keep up the good work and happy hacking! |
I thought more deeply about exactly what is entailed when someone says "I'd like a C compiler" to run native on ELKS. As @tyama501 and @stevexyz mentioned, it would be nice to be able to at least just compile some programs from within ELKS. In order to do that, we'd need the following:
After all this, there are all the issues that @Mellvik brings up, which include problems associated with having no All in all - I have agree with @Mellvik that such a project is not really what people think of "having a C compiler" for ELKS. On another note, I was thinking about some C interpreters that might be able to provide fast execution of simple C programs, such as the C in 4 functions compiler. It is very cool with a small code size, and allows for calling out of various functions like Thank you! |
Hello @stevexyz, @ghaerr, @tyama501, I suspect that the Amsterdam Compiler Kit might be a good candidate for an ELKS-hosted C compiler, though I have not really got around to working on such a thing, and it probably needs a fair amount of effort. I believe ACK used to be the standard toolchain for Minix — including Minix/8086 — and besides, it is written to be able to run on small systems. Thank you! |
Seems to me that https://github.com/alexfru/SmallerC would be a very good start: seems easy enough and producing already 16 bit x86 code in various models, and with self compilation the ported compiler if it will produce the binary elk file. Maybe the author itself would adapt it if requested and specification of the binary file are given: if it is considered good we can try to ask. PS: @ghaerr I had a look at c in 4 functions, and while being an amazing exercise of minimization, seems really not easy to port to minimal memory systems for the way it has been designed |
just as comment, I tried to play with old "ACK for Minix" from https://web.archive.org/web/20070910201015/http://www.laurasia.com.au/ack/index.html#download on Minix i86 (not i386) qemu VM. Well, it ran out of memory :) trying to compile itself under existing 'cc' compiler there. |
Also, Portable C Compiler website seems to be down (and web archive does not have latest copy) so here I found slightly updated (2021) copy of code https://github.com/matijaskala/pcc There seems to be some code related by i86 generation by Alan Cox. Also, someone (Eric J. Korpela) looked at lcc-8086 but not get very far |
Hello @Randrianasulu and @tkchia, Thank you @Randrianasulu for the links to PCC, I'll take a look at it. Same for LCC-8086, that work looks extremely old but could be worthwhile. Of course, it would probably be a good idea to consider only using ANSI-capable (vs K&R) compilers, given where most C code is at today.
It's probably not needed that the compiler be able to compile itself under ELKS (or MINIX), so that's OK. I am not familiar to what degree ACK has been updated to any ANSI standards, and/or long/long log/float support etc. In the case of running on ELKS, we now have the issue that some portions of the C library may be using some @tkchia, you had mentioned you're possibly somewhat familiar with ACK, would that be a version similar to that used for MINIX as described above, or has there been more work done updating it, to your knowledge? Thank you! |
@ghaerr I found little something supposed to help with backtranslating ANSI C to older dialect: Also, may be Xenix (286) a.out variant can be used to get some idea how multiple segments were supported. https://ibcs-us.sourceforge.io/ |
Hello @ghaerr,
I have not yet done a comparison of the "laurasia" copy of ACK, and David Given's current ACK tree — I hope to do that soon. At the moment I am more familiar with Mr. Given's source tree (since I have been working on it a bit). Some impressions:
Thank you! |
slightly newer ackpack for minix (1.1.2) weirdly it comes as tar.tar. I only get file by downloading it via browser, not via wget. Same source should still be in Minix3 git, but a bit obscured because it was deleted years ago ... info from |
so, there was another compiler (c86 ?) but license prohibit commercial use. https://github.com/plusk01/8086-toolchain/tree/master/compiler |
https://web.archive.org/web/20150908032106/http://homepage.ntlworld.com/itimpi/compsrc.htm - so it was named c68, too ... |
ah, it was not complete compiler, just c to asm (nasm in this version) compiler. It needed cc (main driver), ld86 (linker), c preprocessor (it seems for Psion 3 they tried Decus cpp, available in X11R3 distribution - not tried to build it yet). So, some sources are newer in C68 (for QDOS - mk68k/ Sinchlair QL system) but part of older EPOC sources still live at older site: http://web.archive.org/web/20010414060410/http://www.itimpi.freeserve.co.uk/cpocdown.htm#SOURCE |
Seems has already a lot of options, among them the ones for 8086 specific:
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so, I have something horribly broken, but it makes .o files! https://github.com/Randrianasulu/c86 make on linux/termux should give you some binaries. |
@Randrianasulu : it is almost certainly still not GPL-compatible though. |
seems to be very detailed document about c68 by author (I tried to send email to him, but no idea if old email address still works) |
https://qlforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=2112 - may be he has new email, forwarded to it too |
just at the beginning of the C68 QL manual it says that it is Public Domain (even with capitals): INTRODUCTION |
Hello @stevexyz, I mentioned this because @Randrianasulu stated that the source files themselves seem to prohibit commercial use. And I see that Thank you! |
little aside (feel free to hide) but MAME got Psion 3 emulation inmore working state lately https://forums.bannister.org/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=121869&page=3 |
also faucc (286 & 386 codegen only?) https://gitlab.cs.fau.de/faumachine/faucc/-/commits/master EDIT: sadly it does not compile faumachine's new bios :( also, no FP. so, not very useful? |
Just a sidenote, but I think NASM does support ELKS a.out format. LCC port might use NASM too. Anyways, last time I looked into ELKS binary format it had some limits on DATA and CODE segment sizes similar to Minix 1. Is that still the same? What are the limits? Is it now possible to make something like large memory model executables in MS-DOS with GCC-iA16? |
I'm not sure about whether NASM supports a 16-bit MINIX a.out format or not. Does NASM support ELF output? If so, the binary could likely be converted to ELKS a.out format using our own The ELKS toolchain and kernel currently offer the ability to create and run small (64K code, 64K data) and medium (128K code, 64k data) model programs. Access to a larger data segment is possible through C |
I took a peek at NASM. It doesn't support Minix/ELKS directly. It supports as86 obj files though. They could be then linked with ld86 into elks binary, I think. My memory is a bit murky on this. Thanx for the info on memory model support ghaerr. Much appreciated. |
Ok, we can consider what might need to change with our compiler scripts once we get your and other programmer's installations working. This likely means that those changes need to reside in libc/watcom just like libc/watcom/watcom.model does.
That is normal, there is no os2.lib since we don't want to incorrectly link with an OS/2 library. Instead, you will see that
Yes, that is the correct one. It is smaller because the math routines aren't included yet. Here is my build script for basic:
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Hello @ghaerr , Thank you. The basic (for the IBM) worked. I will try to add fmemalloc system call as we talked in |
Now that the capability to run multisegment large-model programs is working via #1924, the stage is set such that the OpenWatcom C compiler itself should be able to be compiled to run on ELKS, along with the ELKS C library. This should be possible since OWC builds a 16-bit MSDOS version when built from source. Actually getting to that point will likely take some time, as the compilation for OWC (the entire toolchain) on my macOS system takes 45+ minutes, so much more needs to be learned about OWC internals to speed up the development process. Given the many Intel 8086 architecture segment-oriented capabilities of OpenWatcom C, I believe it to be a superior choice for a self-hosted ELKS C compiler. I have to say, back in 2022 when @stevexyz first opened this issue, I didn't believe there'd be a suitable compiler for ELKS until @tyama501 mentioned the owtarget16 project and OWC in May! Thank you for everyone's comments. |
Hello, https://github.com/ghaerr/elks/wiki/Using-OpenWatcom-C-with-ELKS Thank you! |
Also, you don't need to build elks to test the binary. |
Thanks for the information. I think Thank you! |
I followed the wiki to compile the libc with OW, but I get (watcom installed from installer on Linux 64):
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Got it. I had to define TOPDIR. But there is no mention about it in the wiki. |
Hello @rafael2k, thanks for trying out our new Watcom support! Let us know how it goes.
I'll take a further look at checking for TOPDIR being set and issue an appropriate error message. |
Thanks @ghaerr! |
Good luck on that! I fully expect the executable to be quite large. But now we should be able to handle that part. As stated over here, we'll likely need to finish filling out the missing system calls for the ELKS OW C library, but that's pretty easy. You may run into other bigger problems with the OW SSH application acting like a typical DOS program and trying to handle it's own keyboard and/or timer interrupts, which would require additional work. |
Btw, thanks for the wonderful work on enabling OW on Elks! |
One suggestion: add ewlink and ewcc directory to PATH in "wcenv.sh". |
I was going to do this but now see that would require the ELKS $TOPDIR variable to be included |
Btw, what do you all think about the effort needed to port dev86 development toolkit for Elks be ported to run on Elks itself by compiling it with OW? |
The dev86 development toolkit is very out of date as it uses the ancient A far better option would be to port the OpenWatcom C compiler and toolchain itself to ELKS, which would give us tons of capability for modern ELKS applications, even though it doesn't (yet) compile the kernel. Since the ELKS C library is already successfully being compiled by OWC, we should be able to pretty much stop cross-compiling if we wanted to as soon as OWC was ported to ELKS. The OWC toolchain is available and can build for execution on DOS itself, so I feel it quite possible to get OWC compiled for running on ELKS. The big problem at the moment is knowledge and time - the OW repo is very large and took 45 minutes just to compile on macOS, so it'll take a bit of work to figure out what needs to done to cross-compile OWC for ELKS (using OS/2 executable output, of course!) |
I thought OpenWatcom is using DPMI DOS4G for protected memory. |
Indeed. Current OW needs at least:
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Oh no! This definitely shoots a big hole in my original plan to port OpenWatcom to run on ELKS :/ I'm not sure where I came up with the idea it would, I just guessed with its large and huge model support it ran in real mode for DOS. This puts me back to square one for ideas on a C compiler for ELKS. Dang! |
As far as I can find, latest version of Watcom which run on real-mode DOS was Watcom 6.0 (1988) or 8.0 (according to wikipedia), which we don't have the source code. |
Anyway, we can have a more precise anwser from @jmalak. |
I opened a discussion at OpenWatcom on this. |
I have only note related to OpenWatcom.
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Maybe I'm wrong (I just tried to install elks on an original PC IBM XT), but seems to me that no C compiler is included inside elks (I've found the basic language interpreter though), while I think that's one of the basic thing of every Linux system.
If that's the case, I understand that a mammoth GCC might not really fit the project, but maybe the small and powerful tcc might be an option!
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